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BDM's avatar
Aug 13Edited

I think my main point of difference with your first post is that I don't think you can call having kids "asocial"—to me it's kind of fundamentally pro-social. That doesn't make not having kids asocial either ofc!

But I think we all benefit qua society from children even if we would not benefit as individuals from having them—it's just that you can't really use the first fact to make judgments about what individual people "ought" to do (I don't think there's even an ought here, aside from being good to children should you have them).… Like if somebody ran some sort of divine equation that showed the key to universal social prosperity was that everybody get married at age 36 to somebody they met at precisely age 34, even if those marriages were not good, that would be basically useless information for individuals, even if it was provably true.

ETA: I guess you are having arguments on several fronts so I take your primary opponent to be something like the statement "people don't have children because they are hedonists who don't believe in the future / love espresso martinis"—we both agree that's a stupid claim, tbc, and like you say, probably empirically wrong.

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forumposter123@protonmail.com's avatar

Other people’s kids, that they spent a lot of time and money raising, will ultimately be taxed to pay for your retirement. The systems are pay as you go so you will have contributed nothing towards them by the time you retire.

The cost of raising a kid, not counting college or unpaid parental labor, is around $330k according to the usda (2023 dollars) That’s after “free” k-12 education, which parents also pay for through taxes.

So having replacement fertility (2.1ish) costs parents at least $700k, and likely more.

I can see how someone would view $700k in additional disposable consumption (plus freedom, time, etc) of essentially free riding in middle age and then dumping the cost in other people’s kids would be a good move in a selfish sense.

Back of the envelope, childless people should probably contribute another $10k or so in taxes each year to support child bearers, if they wanted to do their fair share to contribute to their own retirement. Obviously it would take on the usually progressive shape (higher for higher income).

And of course the form the support comes in matters. Cash is best. “In kind services” tend to benefit the service provider more then the parent, k-12 is already a good example.

While it’s “not just the money”, I find the childless also don’t want to pay up the money. It’s almost like paying up the money, in addition to literally not being fun, would be a kind of admission of what they are doing.

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